There aren't too many TV/film-related people that I'd make a special effort to see, but of the ten or twelve TV shows I've seen more than the odd episode of in my entire life, three are Joss Whedon's work, as is most of the dialogue from one of my favorite action movies, Speed.* I think he's a brilliant writer and storyteller, and I'd never heard him speak. So I made the time to trek thirty miles up the road on a Saturday evening and sit in a long line on the sidewalk outside Wesleyan's film studies building for ninety minutes in order to get a seat in the auditorium for his talk, titled "Defining American Culture: How Movies and TV Get Made." The talk was the keynote speech for a larger conference. I didn't feel like paying $250 to spend the weekend talking about breaking into Hollywood, so I was quite grateful that they opened the speech to the public for free.
As might be expected, Whedon is a witty and entertaining speaker, well worth the queue time. Despite his geeky, aw-shucks veneer and claimed nervousness, he spoke fluently and confidently, with a deep knowledge of and love for his field. And if he was using notes, it wasn't obvious; the whole thing felt like a casual (if unusually amusing) conversation. Not having spent much time watching his DVD commentaries, I was surprised that his voice was deeper than I expected and that he was sporting a distinctly red beard.
The rest of this extremely lengthy post is mostly a description of and excerpts from his remarks. I thought when I started tapping away that I'd just get down a few good lines to quote, but it turned out to be such an interesting talk that I started taking very detailed notes and transcribing furiously. He tosses off serial one-liners faster than I can type, but I believe anything in quotes below is word-for-word accurate.
Enjoy!
Over to Whedon:
"It is with great honor and extraordinary terror that I address you tonight..."
He was relieved that they just wanted him to talk about TV and movies rather than
"...secular humanism, which is hard."
He's done other projects besides Buffy and just finished filming a movie in Vancouver.
"It's nice to move on and have everything not revolve around Buffy. So tonight I'd like to talk to you guys about Buffy."
My heart was won by his metaphorical description of Buffy as waltzing (!) at the intersection of art, commerce, and culture.
He is often asked whether his shows come from inspiration or just cynical commercialism. Everything in his life has been both. Writers need to balance themselves with their audience. They need the strange/personal, but a project can't just be personal or it will be "obtuse."
On Buffy, the teenage girl who saves the world:
"My passion, my perversion, my obsession...my voice, my avatar, my girl."
Buffy is him.
He thought the title Buffy the Vampire Slayer would sell because it had everything:
"comedy, horror, action, and a 'the' "
On early jobs:
"I was working in a video store because I wanted to be a director; if I had wanted to be an actor, I would have been waiting tables."
He remembered that films like Revenge of the Bimbos did not actually include the bimbos getting revenge; it was more like revenge on the bimbos. That made him angry: where was the revenge of the bimbos? Hence Buffy.
"They say aim for the stars and you land in the trees. I aimed for a knoll. Straight to video was my destiny.
"I love the cheese, love the little thing that is not hugely successful. Good thing, or I'd be disappointed all the time."
He was the guy at the video store who knew all movies backwards and forwards...
"...except Anal Angels 5. People would rent that, and I'd be 'Oh, GOD! Enjoy!' "
He doesn't wear his heart on his sleeve.
"I did that in my thesis film in college. And burned the negative."
He comes at ideas from an advertising perspective. He thinks of a trailer and then writes that into a movie. He did that with Buffy (the movie), but the studio did not take his advertising plan:
"For some reason, a 26-year-old with long hair did not make them think he could run their marketing department."
His best advice for aspiring writers:
"Finish it...getting it done is half the battle...when you write 'The End' everything changes. It's now a thing apart from you. You can look at it in a whole new way.
"And other people can, sadly, look at it in a totally new way."
The stages of the knoll he wished to climb:
"God, I hope I finish it.
"God, I hope they buy it.
"God, I hope they make it.
"God, I hope they don't fuck it up."
His first crushing Hollywood lesson:
"Donald Sutherland is mean to everyone. I love him. Why doesn't he love me? Or any living human?"
On working as a script doctor:
"Script doctors come in when a script is mortally wounded and call time of death."
Among his spec scripts was a Die Hard ripoff, the very best Die Hard ripoff. He pitched it as a joke when people kept offering him dog movies; he was told that if he wrote a Die Hard ripoff he'd never be offered another dog movie. It was sold for lots of money, but they never made it. (That was a constant refrain whenever he mentioned a spec script.)
On the illogic of individual ninja attacks on Power Rangers (one of the inspirations for Buffy, apparently):
"Five ninjas...why do they attack one at a time? Why don't they attack at once and win? [pregnant pause] It's a ninja thing."
On the Buffy movie vs. television:
"The movie was a parody concept. A movie can be a concept. A TV show has to have more than a concept."
Everyone knows this, but it's still nice to hear him say it straight out:
"High school is hell. Everything we put on screen is something that happened to the audience."
He was surprised and pleased that the audience and the critics all understood what he was doing.
"I didn't expect people to know it was good for them. It was covered with sugar and frosting and delicious."
Remembering working on Buffy:
"I'm sure it was very exciting to be there. I was too busy being there."
He did some voice work for the video game, which had him as a character. They had him improvise lines:
" 'Say something you'd say while you were killing Tara.'
"Uh...I'm gonna get letters about this one!"
On Dollhouse:
"I have a show on the air which has entertained dozens and dozens of people. At least seven of them didn't like it that much. But they didn't cancel it.
[to the applauding audience] "That's fine for you. But I had plans for this summer."
For next year they offered him a much lower license fee. There will be lots of budget cuts, and they will be shooting on HD instead of film. He doesn't mind:
"When they take money away from me, I get better. When you don't have the flash, the only thing you have to fall back on is quality.
[He wants to] "...make a set a place for the actors to create, not wait to be lit and wait for their closeup."
[somewhat later]
"Now that Dollhouse is a failure we don't have to worry about anything but telling the story. No burden of greatness."
He starts work on the next season on Monday and is open to ideas:
"If anyone wants to pitch anything that's fine. You'll sign a legally binding contract that you didn't say anything."
He feels the encroaching need for everything to be multi-platform (webisodes) was a distraction and damaging to Dollhouse. It didn't affect the shooting so much as the writing. Everything had to be in six acts instead of four, so you needed six reasons to come back from a commercial. This breaks down the momentum and the well-understood four-act structure of a show.
On the role of the studio executive:
"All executives can do is buy. Writers have to create resonance in the culture. Beloved TV characters earn resonance."
Not to overreact about the effect of collapsing business models and the search for new revenue streams:
"What's basically happening...fall of Rome, I would say. Finding a way to destroy the concept of narrative."
Trying to protect the story, the narrative, the relationship with the audience is becoming harder and harder.
On one of his spec scripts, Goners, which is probably permanently buried at Universal, a producer told him
" 'This movie has the burden of not being a sequel.' "
His new film is called Cabin in the Woods. It has a plot. It has a third act, which is much harder than having a premise. He says that's only happened on two projects in his life. (He didn't say what the other one was.)
He describes having a third act as:
"The Muse French kissing you."
On recent movies:
He enjoyed Star Trek enormously and thought it "beautifully made, tremendously well-crafted." He's not a Trekker. For Trekkers,
"It is the grail, it is the cup of a carpenter. Here is Chekhov. You love Chekhov. So you will love to see that he is here. Here is Scotty. You love Scotty. So you will love to see that he is here. That's what a reboot is; that's what it does."
On Marvel Ultimates, the parallel reboot in comics:
"The resonance of Spiderman minus the baggage that he is 35 and married."
He says he isn't particularly bitter or angry about the proposed Buffy reboot that would not involve him. He feels he had his chance to tell the story. They stopped after seven years because they were done. They were tired. It will be
One angry fan made an unfortunately phrased complaint about the reboot:
" 'It's not the same as Star Trek because Gene Roddenberry is dead. It would be fine in ten years.' [plaintively] Can we make it twelve?"
He has no monetary rights to a Buffy movie at all and is actually the only person who cannot legally mount a Buffy movie. Final words on Buffy:
"I have spoken to the audience and they have listened. That is a privilege and I am eternally grateful."
Moving on to his recent project, Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along Blog, a sudden attack of comic self-awareness of how self-centered he sounds discussing all his works so seriously:
"I could not feel more like a prick than I do right now." [adopting the voice of a particularly hoity-toity auteur] "...and then I wrote..."
Dr. Horrible is the first thing he's ever created that he owns all the rights to other than Fray.
Advice for wanna-be writers:
"They say 'I want to tell this story and make a lot of money.' Well, which is it? [When both happen] It's lightning in a bottle.
"You can sell it and make a lot of money and that's all you get. Or you can go off and tell the story yourself and not get any money."
On the coming together of movies and television and the internet and the general shaking up of the entertainment industry:
"They are doing a very awkward mating dance. They are coming together, and they are going to have to have sex. [pregnant pause] They might be the same gender."
On past projects:
"Everything I've ever worked on I've cared about. I am including Waterworld. What a good idea: it's Mad Max, but on water!"
On the advantages of being a third-generation television writer:
"I was born with a silver script in my mouth. That means my father's agent read my script."
Back to advice:
"When this industry changes in the way it will and absolutely must, the only thing that's going to remain is the telling of the story.
"If you're here to find out how to break down the system...the system is breaking down. That's not the problem."
On getting the entire crew involved in what you're doing:
"Everybody's telling a story, and if they know what story they're telling they do better work. Nothing I've done I've done alone. i just take all the credit -- that's awesome!"
Last words:
"Whatever your Slayer is, just make sure that in the end it's you."
From there it went to a Q&A session. Not all the questions interested me. I was particularly unimpressed with the two guys whose questions were along the lines of "Remember we were in class together? Isn't that class what made your whole career?" Both struck me as pathetic attempts to latch onto his success. Judging from the mutters around me I was not the only one rolling my eyes. Some of the more interesting questions:
On his X-Men run: had he ever considered writing a screenplay? He noted that parts of his comic had been used in the third X-Men movie. The conversation in which he was informed of this:
" 'Are you going to pay me? No. Are you going to do it well? Next question!' "
He feels it is important to focus on the medium you're in rather than on possible adaptations and that some comic writers nowadays are just trying to get a movie deal. He wanted to honor the X-Men comic as a comic.
He did float the idea of a Kitty Pryde movie, but there was no interest.
Did he have any thoughts about Anne Rice?
"Never heard of her. Certainly not stealing anything from Anne Rice."
More seriously: Interview with the Vampire was a life changer. He read it when he was fifteen but never read the others. It was
"...the last great puffy-shirt vampire literature that there ever was."
Any connection between making Dr. Horrible and the writers' strike? It was created because of the breakdown of the system. He was angry about the offered contract and the attempted studio consolidation of rights. They had the idea during the strike but by the time they got around to actually doing it
Quite a few people congratulated him on how clever and strategic this was:
"It was a cunning business move to release it just then. [sarcasm] Yes, I certainly didn't want to just rock Comic-Con with my brothers."
But he believes the internet-centered release is a valid and necessary business model, though he doesn't feel he's an expert:
"I am not an internet visionary. I'm the guy who can't find the porn."
He was asked about liking musicals and turned it into a riff on living through the film studies curriculum at Wesleyan:
"And then for two semesters, I took noir. I TA'ed noir. I was living in a dark horror. Everyone was out to get me. Including my girlfriend. And it was raining all the time.
"Then I took westerns. My enemies were tough, but very far away. I stood alone and thought about honor. Westerns was a bit of a reprieve. Those noirs nearly killed me."
On the musical episode of Buffy and Dr. Horrible and High School Musical:
"People love musicals. They're just afraid to admit it. The process is of letting people like musicals out loud."
He explained that the three different shows used different approaches to reach that same goal. High School Musical started with karaoke. Dr. Horrible started with a blog. These are things that people do and are already okay with, so they get eased into it. In Buffy, the characters were like the audience would be: omigod, we're in a musical, what do we do?
To a typical question from someone who wanted to know how to get to tell stories:
"With todays technology, the problem is not getting stories told. It's getting them seen."
Technology as good as what's used professionally is available very cheaply.
On criticism:
"Every essay about a film is only about the person writing it."
I got a chance to ask my question, which was about whether Marvel's Tomb of Dracula had influenced Buffy, since the "Scooby gang" in Buffy had always reminded me of the old TOD gang. I wasn't in much doubt about this, but I wanted to hear what he'd say. Unsurprisingly, he's a huge (his word) Tomb of Dracula fan:
"I finally got to meet Marv Wolfman. I said 'I think I owe you money.' "
(That's doing better than when I met him. I went all wide-eyed fangirl for hours once I realized who he was.)
Something I hadn't caught was that Spike's 1970s flashback scene with the Slayer on the subway was a shoutout to TOD. Nikki was wearing the (comic book version) Blade coat. They also got [TOD artist] Gene Colan for the Nikki issue of Tales of the Slayers.
He offered his approach to creating page-turning tension in comics, with a "big thing" coming before or after a page break. Just flipping randomly through Fray (the only comic of his I've read) I can see this technique used over and over and over again.
He connected this with a scene from Buffy in which Ethan Rayne is proclaiming his intentions, and then Giles comes back. This is a play on a standard way to do an act break -- everyone leaves so the villain can declaim. But what if someone didn't really leave?
(I feel like I'm going to get a lot more out of reading/watching after hearing about these sorts of techniques, which may be old hat to people in the field but of which I was completely unaware.)
Someone asked him about the casting process and thanked him for not making Sierra in Dollhouse an Asian-stereotype geeky scientist. He pointed out that Ivy is a geeky scientist. The questioner said she hadn't been going to mention that. He explained that the role of Sierra had not been written specifically for an Asian, but that it was
"...good to have someone of color in the mix because, you know, everyone's going to have different fantasies, and it would be more fun."
He said that the actress is Tibetan-Australian and doesn't look like anyone else in the world. Going on about the show, he supplied more questions himself. He said that people ask him where the family is, that comforting family that you trust and love.
"I'm like, 'this is my family!' "
Sierra will at some point be the Willow character and at some point will be the Spike character. The mutability of human relations is part of the theme of Dollhouse.
Continuing to ask himself questions, he said that he hadn't been planning a television show, but he'd had the idea over lunch with Eliza Dushku.
"We thought about a Faith spinoff, but Eliza opted to do True Calling instead. And now she's back with me. Really, she's got to learn to make better decisions."
On episodic television:
"Every episode has to have its own reason for being. There has to be a reason for tuning in that's not just because you like these characters. For Buffy, it was 'what is the next experience in life?' She tries beer. He has sex. She feels weird in a new place. It's based in very mundane events. With Angel or Firefly it's different."
On genre writing, he said his audience should never know what genre to expect:
"We like to shake things up. We're not making comfort food at my restaurant."
In answer to a question about why he didn't do shows for cable networks, they apparently say that
" 'We're not interested in genre unless it's by a non-genre writer.' "
He's a genre writer.
The Q&A wound down around 9:40. Earlier, he had asked how many people had brought something to get signed. Maybe twenty people had raised their hands. He said that was manageable, so at the end he invited people down for signing. Big tactical mistake. About half the audience suddenly came up with something or pulled out a camera and mobbed him. He signed frenetically and posed with fans for pictures. Along with DVD boxes and comic books, I watched him sign an iPod(?) case, a wallet, and a paper towel. One guy was hoping to have his chest signed. I love situations that make me feel sane.
I'd brought Fray, so I maneuvered through the mob to get it autographed and take the picture at left of him signing intently. (No, I did not need a picture of me with him. I hate being photographed. I will remember that I was there without documentary evidence.)
All in all, a very worthwhile evening. I'd go hear him speak again anytime.
(Click the picture to enlarge)
*Speed dialogue:
He: "You know, relationships based on intense experience never last."
She: "Hmm, we'll just have to base it on sex, then."
He: "Yes, ma'am."
Sounds like a great evening's outing. Many of his comments are really smart, by being entertaining and informative. Had I remembered, I would have made the effort to attend....
Posted by: bobgreenberger | June 01, 2009 at 09:19 AM
Had I known you were in town I would have nagged you into it! My transcription just can't fully convey how funny a speaker he was.
Posted by: Susan de Guardiola | June 01, 2009 at 09:31 AM
"The Muse French kissing you."
At first I thought he had made up a Muse called French, then I realized what you meant. Don't you kids know about dashes?
Posted by: Serge | June 01, 2009 at 10:38 AM
Donald Sutherland is mean off screen too? How disappointing.
Posted by: Serge | June 01, 2009 at 10:39 AM
his metaphorical description of Buffy as waltzing (!) at the intersection of art, commerce, and culture
...which is what Shakespeare had to do and the results weren't too shabby. Or so I've heard. I wonder when the idea that True Art is (or must be) unsoiled by base commercial considerations became the prevalent attitude.
Posted by: Serge | June 02, 2009 at 09:02 AM
I was amused last week when I saw the name of the scriptwriter for Disney's 1973 movie The Island at the Top of the World.
John Whedon.
Yes.
Joss's grandpapa.
Posted by: Serge | June 09, 2009 at 12:06 PM
Both coach handbags and Ugg Outlet make good sense. I for one look forward to
buying their productshearing more from them.Posted by: Neil W | December 15, 2010 at 06:48 AM
You have made some good points there. I checkdd on the web to find out more about the issue and found most individuals will go along with your views on thiis site.
Posted by: stand up | November 13, 2013 at 07:47 PM